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sub 35min after marathon training - TheEd - 10-01-2011

derele .. that is quite an impressive run .. truthfully a pity you want to go towards marathon training now as developing to a 16.40 5km would roll a lot of things to working towards 3.20 per km racing and a sub 33.30 time for 10km

as mentioned in the an earlier post .. get the 30k runs in over a weekend as normal and switching to marathon training 6 weeks before the marathon may give you enough time to develop to another level

judging from your 15km, you very definitely are able to maintain pace and from my coaching experience you should be aiming towards a sub 2.40 marathon via natural development over 10km with the long runs needed for the marathon

marathon runners are more likely to be born and not necessarily trained

hope this makes sense


sub 35min after marathon training - derele - 10-01-2011

Hi TheEd,

thinking somehow very similar to what you think... It is really fun now, would be great to go on like this.
And your schedules worked great for the distances above 10k! I will see how it goes for the 20k on Feb 14 (goal sub 1:11).

I am already registered for the marathon... But I will slot in more 10ks, racing is just too much fun.
I will add another trail/XC-10k before the 20k. And a 10k 3-weeks before the marathon (the long runs have to be mid-week then). So the new racing schedule looks like this:

Jan 31: 10k trail
Feb 6: 20k (sub 1:11 -> series sub 2:39)

March 13: HM (sub 1:15)
March 20: 10k (see what the M-training brought for 10ks)
April 10: M (sub 2:40)

** Strart of "M-training" on Feb 14: 35k on Sundays and threshold runs on Tuesdays. Having the threshold runs in addition to the long runs and Intervals is somehow mentally important for me. I appreciate the big progress I made on your programs, but for the Marathon I just want to repeat what worked well for me.


sub 35min after marathon training - TheEd - 10-01-2011

from my experience in the last 6 weeks (before a marathon) and especially in the last 2 weeks, racing over the shorter distances would be more suited to starting at a slow pace and then finishing strongly, too often the runner over extends themselves in the shorter distances and runs personal bests and then when the marathon arrives they tend to run on empty

marathon get to 30/32k race last 10km [or in some cases maintain to finish Wink]

during last 6 weeks before marathon build up, start shorter races at marathon pace for 1st km in 10km and finish stronger (15 - 21 - 30k races first 5km and so on)

in the programs a lot of focus was given on the last 15 minutes of 1hr and longer runs that the athlete runs at marathon pace when finishing a session, especially after running at a slower pace in their runs

hope this makes further sense

seems like you have some fun decisions ahead



sub 35min after marathon training - derele - 11-01-2011

Yes much fun! It is really interesting to get to know my body better and better.

I like what you say about the progressive runs. I will try run marathon pace on the last ks of most slow runs (at least when I don't feel on the edge of injury or overtraining, which could happen quite regularly :mmm: :laughSmile

The 10k on March 20 will be a tough decission to make. Having the half 4 weeks before and the 10k 3 weeks before the M it will probably be not possible to get many quality sessions on the last 4 weeks. It will be more like race, race, taper.

I will see how I feel about it in time...


sub 35min after marathon training - derele - 14-01-2011

Hey TheEd,

post-proned 5x2k from yesterday because of lasting post-race sourness. Nice day outside, bit windy but fine otherwise:
07:01, 07:04, 07:05, 07:07, 07:04

Forgot my HR-belt, so I have no further info.
Don't know what is going on, this is slower than I raced the 15k... approx. what I want my pace to be for the 20k and HM. Legs were still a bit tired but it is strange, and I wonder why I can't do this session faster.


sub 35min after marathon training - TheEd - 14-01-2011

that 15km was a solid run D .. so your body is most likely still a little tired

monitor your waking pulse as well as seeing if your legs ache a little when walking down stairs

focus more on recovery over the next few days and not so much on getting the training in

important days the next few



sub 35min after marathon training - derele - 31-01-2011

Hey TheEd,

long silence on my end. Here is what I did during the last 23 days:

Travelled to Edinburgh 2 days after the 5x2k Intervals discussed above .Did 30k on my old long round (great!). Making it total 140k in this week after the 15k race. Maybe the too high mileage is the reason I can't run faster on the Intervals.

During the week in Edinburgh I did a hard 10k on Tue (36:32, a training best) and 6x1k on Thursday (3:18, 3:20, 3:25, 3:28, 3:29, 3:22). Had a lot of work and did only 82k during the week. Coming back to Germany (where the weather was gorgeous) I did a 37k on Sunday to make it 120k this week.

The very long run did not stop me from doing 10x400 in 74-76 on Tuesday which felt quite easy. But for the rest of the week I felt the impact of the long run (maybe plus this fast session) and took two days off from running. Had a 10k cross race on Sunday (making it 84k for the week).
The race was very enjoyable: Two 33 guys going for the first and second and I felt good running all the way in a group with two other 34ish guys. 500m before the finish I pushed the pace and the others could not follow: 3rd place.
I even came close to the 2nd (only 5s) and the leader (20s) both are running low 33s.
Wonder if I should try to compete with the faster guys on the next race. Wink

It is strange: 3:30-3:25 pace (or the equivalent effort in the cross race) feels hard enough, but I still had enough energy left to push to 3:05 pace for the last 400-600m... this corresponds to 10x400 @74 feeling easy, 10k @ 3:39 pace feeling easy, but 1k/2k Intervalls not going at 3:15/3:20.

As long as the racing results get better I can live with bad "results" in the Interval sessions... just wondering...

This week on the menu:
5x2k on Thursday, 20k race on Sunday and hitting 140k total (without a Sunday long run).


sub 35min after marathon training - TheEd - 31-01-2011

doing 400's after a long run over 30km is not recommended as muscle damage can occur, so you need to make the decision to drop the 400's

if you go up to 30km before the 400's then that is fine, once over 30km and especially over 36km it is definitely not recommended to be followed by short intervals

seems like you getting strong as you recovered well


sub 35min after marathon training - derele - 31-01-2011

Hi TheEd,

ohhhh, thanks!
Muscles felt really bad from Wednesday on, but I did not connect it correctly with the 400s two days after the 37k. I thought it was just delayed soreness from the long run... Thanks a lot indeed, this info will probably save me from injury or at least suboptimal training.

Judging from my results in training I do not need the 400s anyways. I will focus on 1-3k Intervals instead. And the Intervall session is usually on Thursdays not Tuesdays I just rescheduled it because I wanted to be fresh for the race.


sub 35min after marathon training - derele - 04-02-2011

Hi TheEd,

feeling very strong at the moment. Having done a total of 70k easy on Mon. Tue. Wed I did 5x2k yesterday:

| Time | Avg HR | Max HR |
| 00:07:01 | 160 | 168 |
after R90 113
| 00:07:14 | 161 | 167 |
after R90 115
| 00:07:03 | 163 | 170 |
after R90 114
| 00:07:14 | 162 | 169 |
after R90 108
| 00:07:04 | 165 | 174 |
after R90

Did not try to do them all-out but rather as a bit harder version of the race-prep fartlek. I will race 20k on Sunday. The reps did feel okay and I think I can hope to race the full 20k at a pace between rep1 and rep 5 Big Grin