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Sub 20 and Sub 40 for 5k, 10k - Triathlon mainly

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Old 22-09-2014, 05:56 PM   #1
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Corroios - Portugal
Sub 20 and Sub 40 for 5k, 10k - Triathlon mainly

Hi Ed,

Thanks for let me join this GREAT forum. Its amazing to find some many fellow runners at the same crossroad I'm in. I only wish I could improve as much as most of them did.

I'm Jorge, 46, 1,70m, currently 60kg

Discovered the time-to-run web site last week and have been reading a lot of very interesting stuff. Your 10k training programs seem something I could follow.

I'm training in a very unstructured way, almost all I do is kind of steady volume sessions, ranging from 40m to 1h20. Pace is all about how I feel on that particular session. But want to improve and place some order in what i do. Never was to found of interval training but to improve one has to enter the pain zone.

Between 87 and 92 I did a lot or road races and specially triathlons, then I got myself mentally burned and stop doing them. At that timet the way I trained were also based on volume, and occasionally some hill intervals either on the bike or run. Looking back, i had some interesting results but they belong to the past.

About a year ago my oldest son (12) started doing triathlons and after 20 years I felt the rush to ride and run again. Did quite a few races from super-sprints, sprints an Olympic distance and a very tough half iron man (bike ~2k of accumulated height). Started with 67-68kg and before the long distance I was 58kg.

For next season i would like to run faster,
For road:
5km between 18 and 19 minutes.
10k under 40 minutes. (38+)

For Tris. bellow 20 and 40 for 5k and 10k. Most events here (Portugal) are Strint distances (5km).

I'm still looking forward to race in the same long distance event (around July 2015). Although quite tough, its something I want to repeat. Obviouly improve my time. Did 1h46m56s for the 21k and 5h42m overall.

I need to get some structure to my running.

Today (last Saturday) I did the 4k trial run on a track. It was tough, very tough,at the end felt some dizziness.

before the test I ran 4km as 176 bpm (I run with a metronome) and 10x 100 gradually picking pace without ever sprinting

4k were done in 15m32s (really hate the track!!!)

Here's the splits (test done at 2PM UK time)
1k 3:23 3:23
2k 3:48 7:11
3k 4:09 11:20
4k 4:12 15:32

Metronome @182 bpm
Avg hr: 194
Max hr: 201

I used a vintage polar hr monitor (Sport Tester) and the metronome setup for 182 bpm.

I started too fast and only settled with the beeps after the first km.
but had a significant drop after the 2nd km. The last 2 laps I was just thinking about ending.

Looking at the end time that is what I wanted bellow 16 minutes but at the same time I have a bitter feeling, Pace droped a lot.
I blew myself over the first 2k. I would rather had each k around 3h52-5.

Yesterday (Sunday) did a easy 5k run at very slow 6:51 pace (172 bpm) trying not to go over hr 140. Its really awkward.

Today I took the day off to start the Sub 40m program tomorrow (tuesday).

Last week I did the following
Sunday 2014-Sept-14
Dist: 9km
Time: 55m
Freq: 170 bpm
Avg Hr: 148

Wednesday 2014-Sept-17
Dist: 8.5km
Time: 41 m
Freq: 170 bpm
Avg Hr: 152

Thursday 2014-Sept-18
Dist: 9km
Time: 53:10
Freq: 170 bpm
Avg Hr: 152

Friday 2014-Sept-19
Dist: 10km
Time: 1h 02m 15s
Freq: 170 bpm
Avg Hr: 145

Saturday 2014-Sept-20
4k warm up @MTB circuit.
4k test

Friday 2014-Sept-20
Dist: 5km
Time: 34m15
Freq: 172 bpm
Avg Hr: 130

Tomorrow it will be the first day of my new running live !!!

60 - 70 min easy distance
Targeting pace@172 bpm
hr < 145 (75% of my AVG HR for the 4k test) .

have fun!
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Old 23-09-2014, 08:49 AM   #2
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Location: Corroios - Portugal

First session is done!

Started at 6:24 AM

Felt really good the whole session, so I let loose try to keep the frequency at 172 bpm. It was the only thing holding me down.

Sometimes when the course is more flat had that good glide feelling.

Before the last km I pushed a little to try to later on check the real pace.

Distance 14km
time: 68m58s
Freq: @172
avg pace: 4:55

The test km at the end of the session (from 58:25 to 63:04)
was done in 4:39.

Could keep on that pace some more time.

Then I just slow down back home for another k.

Tomorrow, a very easy 30 minutes!!
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Old 24-09-2014, 10:10 AM   #3
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Hi Jorge and welcome to the forums, apologies to slow reply

good to see that you up & running

first off .. on your last post .. try not to have your pulse too high during the easy running. We will find your range, however on average, the easy runs are around 140 bpm, though we shall know more about you shortly

another aspect we don't do, is test ourselves during the easy runs, the easier the better

we have the sessions of importance from Day 3 to day 8

2k * Long Run * 1k sessions

this is the core of the program, after this learning to back off and allow the body to recover is how success is achieved

for this cycle, we will look to do 4 x 2k .. the next cycle if all goes well, we will up you to 5 x 2k and slot you into the sub 40 minute 10km program

for Thursday session (Day3) .. we recommend the following: 4 x 2k Rest 90 seconds @ 4.10 per k = 8.20

if the session is easy, then great, report back and then we roll to the wrong run over the weekend

welcome on board

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Old 26-09-2014, 02:34 AM   #4
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Corroios - Portugal
Thanks for the feedback and tips.

When I wrote "freq" I was meaning "cadence", I run with a metronome to try to keep a constant leg turn over. This week for the "easy runs" I have it setup to 172 steps per minute.

For next week I will increase to 174, till i reach 180. Some months ago when I got the metronome I jump right to 180 and the first couple to runs were fun, then the body started to embed the rhythm but it was too much for my ankles and got a nasty sharp pain on my right soleus and had stop running for almost 3 weeks. Last week when i started running again I used a lower cadence and am gradually increasing the turn over.

The actual avg hr of day 1 was 167 still high though. But I always had a high heart rate compared to other fellow runners. (about 20 to 30 beats above their value)

Now back to the 10k program.

Yestarday day 2 I did

30 minutes easy
Cadence: 172
Avg pace (km): 6:11
Distance: 6.5 km
Avg HR: 133
Max: 165 (the course is not entirely flat)
Remarks: running at this pace is very awkward. But easy must be easy...

Today did the 4 x 2k or better 2x2x2k.

On the third interval at about 600m I had to spit but I chocked with the saliva and i almost had to throw my stomach out. Had to stop immediately to control my inner self and recover. That ruined the third run.

Here's the outcome (again I started too fast) Still have a lot to go in terms of controlling my pace.

Started with a warm up of 4km (4 laps of 1k (1007m) on the chosen course. which is not really flat from 350 to 550 is goes up then in 50 meters it descends back to the same level of before 350m)

warm up time 21' 55
Avg HR: 143
1k: 5:40
2k: 5'45
3k: 5'45
4k: 4'50

Then spent 12 minutes doing drills and some stretches.

And went for the "main course"

1st 2k (too fast and the 1st k was hard to breath)
time: 7'20 (3'35 + 3'45) AVR HR: 183
rest 100 seconds (walking)

2nd 2k (felt better in more control)
time: 7'45 (3'45 + 4'00) AVR HR : 187
rest 100 seconds (walking)

3rd 2k (Breathing much better)
time: 2'30 (about 600m was chocking) AVR HR: 180
recovered and then walk back to starting point
Rest 6 minutes

3rd 2k (started again and felt ok, had a long rest)
time: 7'50 (3'55 + 3'55) AVR HR: 185
rest 100 seconds (walking)

4th 2k (last k legs start feeling heavy but breathing was fine)
time: 7'57 (3'55 + 4'02) AVR HR: 188

Cool down (2x 1k)
walked 600m, jog 1400m, afterward did some stretches.

My right ankle is sore but tomorrow is a rest day and should be ok for saturday session.

Overall it was a long session, i'm having some trouble controlling the initial pace. Have to slow down to achieve a more consistent and maintainable pace. But with the next sessions I hope the body will learn how to do that.

Tomorrow day 04 - Rest

Saturday I'll report about the long session, 1h30 at a normal pace. I'll aim to stay with a heart rate bellow 155.

Have fun
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Old 27-09-2014, 10:46 AM   #5
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make sure the calf muscle of your right leg is kept loose, so it can assist your ankle

if you able to train on the easy run with a heart rate monitor on and at 140 bpm and then report back the cadence it could be interesting

the 2k session certainly was quick

let's see how you go up and including the 1k session

have a nice weekend

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Old 27-09-2014, 09:09 PM   #6
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Location: Corroios - Portugal

Originally Posted by TheEd View Post
make sure the calf muscle of your right leg is kept loose, so it can assist your ankle
Right ankle and calf is just fine. Before going to bed I did some massage on the sore zone. On Friday when I woke up the previous soreness was gone.

Originally Posted by TheEd View Post
if you able to train on the easy run with a heart rate monitor on and at 140 bpm and then report back the cadence it could be interesting
The main issue for me the keeping the HR down. If cadence goes up the same happens with the HR.

Running with the metronome so far has been a very interesting experience. You have an audible aid to keep the turn over constant. I started to be more aware and focused on my running form. its fun then to play with the stride length whenever I want to go faster and/or slower.

When we got tired obviously we tend to slow down in all aspects, speed, form, short strides, slower leg turn over. With the "beeper" I'm finding that only stride length and thus speed is affected. But then this is my own feeling.

Originally Posted by TheEd View Post
the 2k session certainly was quick
Ya, I was somehow (well very) anxious about these sets. This is out of my "comfort zone", so its difficult at this stage to maintain control, but i will get there.

On the first 2k set I just blew it, the next had something to compare to, but fatigue was also coming into play, I set the cadence to 180 and the 1st one was very difficult to be in sync. But at 3'50 and above it starts to be just right for my actual running condition. running bellow that pace and keep 180 steps/min I have to really push harder to propel my body forward and that will drain me faster. Maybe 184, 186 would be better but I'm not there yet.

About the day 5, 1h30 session.

Run for 91 minutes covering 16km. It was more or less the type of session i did once or twice a week but usually I go a bit faster, like day 1. But as i need to work on control the sooner I start the better.

Tried to be relaxed, focus on form and keep HR under 155.
Cadence @172
AVR HR: 149
Max HR: 160
Pace: 5' 41 min/km
Avg Stride Length: 102cm

Overall I'm feeling great, legs feel more solid.

Tomorrow, its 30 easy minutes.

Originally Posted by TheEd View Post
let's see how you go up and including the 1k session
YES, I'm looking forward to that. I'll use the same course as the 2k. Let see how the body reacts to the induced stress over the next days.

I'm thinking about try to do each km in 4'00 with 60" rest. Cadence @180.

I'll report back then.

If you want to move this thread into the Triatlhon training sub-forum please go ahead. In October I'll start swimming (3x1h a week) and cycling (about 2x 1h sessions on a trainer and longer ride (70k+) on Sunday but it all depends on the weather that day).

Thanks for the feedback,
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Old 28-09-2014, 01:36 PM   #7
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we can move this towards the TRI section at a later stage

slowly we shall get there

cheers TheEd
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:56 PM   #8
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Location: Corroios - Portugal


Here's the sessions after Saturdays long run

Cycle 1 | Week 2 | Day 6
Cadence: 172
Distance: 5k
Time: 32'
AvgHR: 139
Notes: had to control the will to go faster. tried to keep HR bellow 145

Cycle 1 | Week 2 | Day 7
Cadence: 174
Distance: 10k
Time: 52'15"
Avg HR: 152
Notes: Was feeling great, just incremented cadence 2 units and enjoyed the run. did a 2x 5k the second one went a bit faster than it should but was really feeling good.

Cycle 1 | Week 2 | Day 8 (6x 1k)
Cadence: 180+

# | Time | Avg HR | Max HR | Rest | Start HR (next)
1 | 3.36 | 172 | 185 | 60 | 139
2 | 3:42 | 182 | 188 | 62 | 143
3 | 3.43 | 186 | 197 | 60 | 144
4 | 3.47 | 186 | 195 | 56 | 159
5 | 3.49 | 188 | 195 | 63 | 150
6 | 3.48 | 188 | 196 | ---------------------

I did the intervals late at night and was feeling tired. Although the previous day 10k were great, I was "paying the bill". Did a 4k warmup and felt tired.
By the end of the warm up I pickup the pace to try to shake the body.

I started the first interval too fast (again) and about 300 meters I slowdown.
The first one was the hardest because of breathing but then the others were a bit easier and started to better control breathing and rhythm. Basically:
find the pace.
before the ascending segment (lower the pace a bit and hold it)
then increase pace a bit and hold til the end.

At the end I did a 2k jog. Legs felt heavy but and had to increase jog cadence to feel better.

About cadence: 180 was getting slow. I have to widen the stride a lot and almost jump for feet to feet. next time I'll try to 182 or 184.

Overall, It went faster than I expected but time splits were more even.

Today I fell somehow tired (climbing stairs feel harder) , body and legs need a rest. I don't usually run so many days in a row. But am sticking to the plan!!!

Today I'll start swimming again (last time I swam was on first week of August). But i will mostly doing drills.

With the next 2 easy sessions (this time i mean easy ) and rest on Friday, i think this tired feeling will go away.

On the 12 of October I'll probably do a Super-sprint Tri. But its not decided yet.

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Old 05-10-2014, 11:29 AM   #9
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would love for you to forget about the cadence for now and focus on form

feel good in what you doing and not look for the 'cadence'

focus on relaxing at speed

though you have done the day 3 to day 8

so let's see how the body recovers

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Old 09-10-2014, 06:37 AM   #10
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Hi TheEd,

Sorry for the late feedback.

Cycle 1 | Week 2

The day after the 6x1k was feeling really tired.

Day 9 -> Easy 33min (6k+) HR avg: 133

Day 10 -> Easy 1h 6min (11k+) HR avg: 131
At night went for a swim but nothing was "working". feeling very tired, unusul heavy legs, water too warm, goggles fogging all the time, just did some drills and left after 36 minutes.

Day 11 -> REST

Day 12 -> fast 5K ( 12k with warmup and cool down)
HR Avg: 186
Time: 19min 50secs
1k 3min 49secs (find and settle a pace)
2k 3min 55secs (going just nice)
3k 3min 59secs (still feeling good)
4k 4min 03secs (discomfort starting to show, but "just one more to go!")
5k 4min 04secs (about mid way felt like "drowning" and "why am I doing this???")
Then it was over!
Was about to skip this session, I felt lazy all day. The warmup was like I was dragging myself.
At the end I was with mixed feeling, glad about having done the workout but still thinking "why...".

Day 13
-> Morning : Bike 60km (spinning mostly and some climbs 30k, 1h watching an open water event and returning + 30km)
Late afternoon: Easy 1h6min (~12K) HR avg: 142
Legs felt heavy and overall was feeling quite tired (bike effect).

Day 14 -> Swim 2150m (feeling much better)
Walk for 1 hour, about 6k.

Day 15 -> 10x 400m
Swim straight easy 45 minutes. Overall it was good for my legs, they felt relaxed afterward.

The 400m set:
87secs, rest 61secs (felt like had to push to keep the pace)
86secs, rest 62secs (still trying to set the pace, felt was going slow)
85secs, rest 61secs (started faster but then slow down by the end)
87secs, rest 61secs (from this one after it was like I just let the body run)
86secs, rest 59secs (like auto-pilot)
88secs, rest 59secs (like auto-pilot)
86secs, rest 59secs (last 4 felt much easier)
88secs, rest 59secs
87secs, rest 60secs
87secs, rest secs

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Day 16 -> easy 46min
Did a "brick", bike on a trainer for 40min with intervals. then went for the run.
Still have to download the heart rate data.
But felt quite easier, pulse was around 142-144 and I think I was "rolling" faster.
This is something I'm starting to notice (and enjoy), the easy sessions for the same avg hr are getting faster.

Today I'll go for a 45min swim at lunch time and later on the fartlek session.
Overall, my knees felt a bit strained earlier when I left bed and going down the stairs, but after I start moving around they seem ok.

So far this has been an enjoyable experience. I think the body is recovering nice. I'm also having a better idea of what paces I can manage.
5k < 20min, I'm there (alone)! I believe in a race I'll can get closer to 19mins.
10k < 40min, just in dreams, Still have a long way to be able to reach it.

Another aspect is the level of effort of the easy sessions. They have to be really easy even if I feel great and want to go faster, i have to keep them slow and easy. If not the next couple of days I feel more tired.

Next week second cycle start and let see how it goes. On this first one i did some mistakes that I want avoid.

On Sunday I'll be doing a SuperSprint Tri (300m swim, 8k bile, 2k run).

Again and as always,

a BIG THANKS for this program.

Have fun,
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