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Looking for new input - deckard19 - 12-05-2015

Hi Ed. Long time reader of this website and the excellent advice that you provide on here. Now I finally feel like asking also.
Background: 38 year old male. Been running for 6 years now. 196 cm - ca 80 kg. Times: 10 km: 33.40 (6 months ago) and marathon: 2.36 (1 year ago). I've never really nailed a 5 km or half marathon (only 1.17 on very windy day). I ran a very bad marathon 3 weeks ago, where I jogged through due to stomach issues, but I'm pretty much in 34 min 10 k shape right now as I write. Legs are fresh after 3 very easy weeks. I need a fresh approach. I'm in a little bit of a rut, and haven't really improved for a couple of years. My training has overall been like this: 130-140km pr week. Mostly easy runs with hr 125-140 (max of ca 187) pace 4.25-4.45 pr km. Tempo runs/long intervals in 3.30-3.40 pr km pace with hr of ca 160 or a bit more. These are done 2-3 times pr week and I usually go 2 hrs on sundays (26-27 km). I race quite rarely and keeps focus on 2 marathons pr year. But this approach is getting tiresome and I want to be more loose, sharpen my speed and race much more frequently. So I think your approach to training could be the right one for me at this point. But how do I start the cycles? I'm used to more mileage than prescribed in the plans and I normally do 3 am runs of 6-8 km. Should I keep these and perhaps 1 hr of running on all non-workout days or should I cut mileage and start by following for instance the sub 33 min plan as it is? I would like to start racing 10 km and half marathons every 3-4 weeks, and maybe race a marathon (Berlin) in the fall, but not as the only target. There's a half marathon 3 weeks before, so why not race that as well? Unthinkable before Smile
Hope to hear from you.

Kind regards

Looking for new input - TheEd - 13-05-2015

Hi deckard, and welcome to the forums

from the data provided you should be quite easy to work with, we would recommend starting off with a 4k time-trial to ascertain what paces to start with, under the

sub 35 minute 10km program

there is very much more to the programs, and once you go through the build-up after a few cycles, we normally ask the runner to maintain the 1hr runs in the schedule

everything about the programs is progressive, and must fit in with the runner's lifestyle, those running under 36 minutes for 10km are encouraged to do a morning run . this is discussed under Program Tips

also of interest for those on the program who want to run marathons, is that you maintain your long run very 3 weeks, we work on either a 2hr or up to 30k

if you maintain that, then we have a 6 week marathon program that we do not make available to the public, but would certainly make it available to you

from my experience over the years, 12 weeks to focus on 1 race is too much, especially when anything can go wrong on the day.

more about that a little later


Looking for new input - deckard19 - 15-05-2015

Hi Ed,
So here's my week up to now including time trial 4k on the track today.
M - 15.4 km - 4.42 pace@hr avr. 137
T - 15.5 km - 4.30 pace@hr 133
W - 9.3 km - 4.36@hr 127
Th - 17.3 km - 4.27@hr 138
all easy runs.
Today friday: 4 km warm up, then time trial as follows with 400 m splits. There were many people there, so had to run parts of it in lane 3 and 4, which makes timing more difficult. But I come to this result after checking Garmin paces and distance:
1. 1.17 @ hr 159
2. 1.17 @ hr 176
3. 1.19 @ hr 178
4. 1.20 @ hr 179
5. 1.20 @ hr 181
6. 1.20 @ hr 182
7. 1.21 @ hr 183
8. 1.22 @ hr 184
9. 1.22 @ hr 184
10. 1.23 @ hr 183
then 3 km warm down.
13.21 for the I'm so thrilled. Not because of the time itself, but because I really felt like I was pushing near vo2max, which I never seem to be able to do. The last 2 km was a struggle, because I''m not really used to pushing myself, and my very heavy breathing let me know it, but it feels so good afterwards lying at the side of the track gasping for air Smile So...I have a 9,2 km race on the 14th of June, so perhaps start a cycle right away, maybe next week? Could you help me with paces based on my easy run hr and the test and perhaps explain to me how I will be using the programme. I've read about the am runs of 8-10 km, but why week 2 and 3 and not 1? Should I do these? What about the long run? I've a lot of questions, but right now, I'm just excited to hear your response to my test. I've read most posts in here, and you seem to give such excellent advice based on the 4k time trial - especially when there is heart rate data to work with. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Looking for new input - TheEd - 17-05-2015

a very nice 4k, and hearing about your breathing shows that you have a decent engine under the bodywork

the am run, because Day 3 to Day 8 is so intensive, we do not recommend the morning runs to start with during week 1, until the runner has adapted to the format of the program.

we believe very much in less is better to start, the programs are progressive and you will discover many different facets get added as the athlete develops

Day 1 on Tuesday and Day 3 on Thursday is best for the cycle

so for the 2k session on Thursday, are you able to work out your pace from the formula provided here: Program Tips

please get back to me with the paces you work out

you seem to have your easy runs nailed and to start with can venture towards 140 bpm on the 1hr runs

we work loosely on a 'rule of thumb' that for the easy runs uptil 1hr, the athlete runs 1 minute per k slower than current 10k shape

and 90 seconds per k slower for the 90 minute runs and over, when working with the runners the pace often correlates with the pulse accordingly, there are variations per individual but on average 140 bpm seems to slot in with the races

with progression, we believe very much in paced runs for the athlete as they develop on the schedules, but for now, let's keep it simple, avoid overtraining and enjoy the new lease

please ask further questions as we progress, and do read this:

Thoughts Behind the 10k Programs

over to you


Looking for new input - deckard19 - 17-05-2015

Right. I've done the math, and figured 3.30 pace for the 2k reps, and subsequently 3.20 for the 1k reps and 76 sec for 400's. Does that sound ok to you? Will run my first 2k session this thursday. I want to ask these questions, though:
1) I have 4 weeks to my next race. How do we adapt the first cycle?
2) the long run - 90 min or 2 hrs? and from what you write, this will be very easy pace, 4.50-5.00 pr km for me, right?

Looking for new input - TheEd - 18-05-2015

you can start with 3.25 - 3.30 per k for the 2k session, though start off at 3.30 per k, and if strong then speed up over the last 2 or 1

then 10 seconds per k quicker for the 1k session

for the 400m, this session should be done on a tartan track or grass, but preferably not on tarmac as it hurts the calf muscles too much

as for the long run, if you are used to a 2hr run, then continue with that time period. if you use your monitor, then start off @ just below 140 bpm, if your pace is quicker not to hassle but keep it below 140 for the 1st 25 minutes . this pulse as you progress may go higher as you run further, but for now, lets keep things simple

we will shuffle the last week before the event around, though within 2 weeks on the schedule we should know where you stand

over to you


Looking for new input - deckard19 - 18-05-2015

Great, thx Smile hr 140 and 2 hrs it is. I think it's a good idea to base much on heart rates. I'll do my reps as suggested, and I'll do the workouts on a track. I will do 8 km am runs hr up to 140 on the prescribed days on week 2 and 3. Looking forward to my very first 2 km session this thursday. Especially to compare hr to 3.25-3.30 pace with 90 sec passive recovery.

Looking for new input - TheEd - 20-05-2015

there is much to come deckard, we must try to do as little as possible to get some results before increasing intensity etc

from your feedback, we will be able to learn more about you as an individual

ps.. the 2k session is a tough one, so will be good to get it under the belt

Looking for new input - deckard19 - 21-05-2015

Hi theEd. So today was my first time with the 5 x 2 k session, and I'm very happy with the result, actually. Reading other posts and feedback, I'll relay the info from my reps like this: time for each km with avr hr AND the lowest hr recorded at the end of the 90 sec rest interval. So here it goes:
1. km: 3.29 @ 153
2. km: 3.26 @ 165
Rest: 105 bpm

3. km: 3.22 @ 161
4. km: 3.26 @ 170
Rest: 111 bpm

5. km: 3.21 @ 163
6. km: 3.26 @ 171
Rest: 118 bpm

7. km: 3.21 @ 163
8. km: 3.25 @ 173
Rest: 120 bpm

9. km: 3.19 @ 166
10. km: 3.25 @ 174
Rest: 110 bpm (standing totally still - walked on the other rests)

So quite pleased with the effort on the track today, and although it is a hard workout, I felt reasonably in control throughout. I ran very fast for the first 100 m of every repetition (as I've learned from reading your advice elsewhere on this website), and then tried to settle at the desired pace of 3.25 give or take a few seconds. That explains the fast 1. km of every rep. Looking forward to the 6 x 1 km next week.

Rest of runs this week:
Sa: 13.3 km in 4.34 @ hr 139 (very hilly)
Su: 6.6 km in 4.45 and 11.6 km in 4.32 @ hr 134 (hilly)
Mo: 14.0 km in 4.25 @ hr 136
Tu (start of program): 17.2 km in 4.30 @ hr 138
W: 9.0 km in 4.29 @ hr 136
Th: 5x2 km (total of 17 km)
I have a beloved 9 km loop, which takes me through mostly forest paths and gravel, and I will run this when I'm doing a 30-40 min easy run - as yesterday.

Can I do this instead of a rest day tomorrow? I'm not that fond of days of no running :

Looking for new input - TheEd - 22-05-2015

if you are used to active recovery then great, we will assess how things go by the end of Day 8

judging from your feedback, I do believe that the pace for the 2k was maybe slightly too slow, so if you feeling come the 1k session, then speed up the last 2 x 1k by 5 seconds per k

good to go through the first cycle feeling strong Big Grin

enjoy your weekend