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Training feedback - jbd - 22-06-2019

Hi coach, and thanks for accepting me to the forums!

I'm 31 years old, 189 cm tall and weigh 83 kilograms. I've just started my second cycle of the 10K program. I've been running about two times per year for the last decade or so. Until my bike broke last year I commuted with bike daily, a short distance of 3 km but just over 100 meters climb so still some exercise. I did CrossFit training regularly for a year about 3 years ago and have been doing it sporadically since (on average less than once per month). I've also been doing some sporadic weight lifting with usually 10-20 minutes of rowing as warmup. I spend some time mountain climbing and that usually includes hiking in hilly terrain and 1-2 weeks of downhill/off-piste skiing during winters.

This spring I was signed up for a 11,4 km leg in a relay race, so I started to do some running, then started reading more about training and came in contact with your program just in time to start 3 weeks before the race.

Before starting the program I did 7 runs earlier this year, last run before that was probably last summer:
March 30th: 6,01 km, 27:16, average HR 176
April 3rd: 5,84 km, 29:30, average HR 170 (uphill, elevation gain 129 meters)
May 11th: 10,02 km, 46:29, average HR 177
May 14th: 6,02 km, 25:50, average HR 180 (same route as March 30th)
May 17th: 15.01 km, 1:15:48, average HR 165 (longest distance I've ever ran before this was around 11 km)
May 19th: 5,02 km, 21:57, average HR 176
May 22nd: 10,03 km, 47:14, average HR 176

It is obvious from both your program and what I have read elsewhere that my prior strategy of just "going for it" whatever the distance is not the best way to train. I had a high average HR for all of my runs except the 15 km run in which I tried to stay in Z3.

I am using a Garmin with a chest heart rate strap to track my workouts. I use heart rate zones based on lactate threshold that has been automatically calculated by my watch, but seems to be the same as using Joe Friels method. My RHR is 45, my max HR is 193 and my estimated LTHR is 17. These are the zones I use based on LTHR:
Z1: -139
Z2: 140-155
Z3: 156-165
Z4: 166-174
Z5: 175-
Starting the program I've kept my easy runs in Z2 everything from 30 to 90 minutes. I've tried to run intervals on flat to mildly undulated tracks and my longer runs on varied terrain.

First 3 week cycle:
Warmup and cooldown included in total distance and time. I can add more info if needed.

Day 1 - 60 minutes easy:
Distance: 10,34 km
Average pace: 5,48 min/km
Elevation gain: 176 m
Average HR: 158

Felt easy but heart rate was a bit high due to hot air temperature and I also did a few strides.

Day 2 - 30 minutes easy:
Distance: 5,90 km
Average pace: 5:05 min/km
Elevation gain: 0 m
Average HR: 158

Ran barefoot on the beach. Felt good but my instinct was to increase tempo so I had to try hard to stay in the "talk zone". Did a few strides. Still a bit too fast.

Day 3 - rest day

I was unable to fit a session into this day so I pushed the 2K session to the next day, planning to have another rest day after the 2K session and omitting day 7.

Day 4 - 2K intervals:
Time: 32:40 min
Distance: 6,99 km
Average pace: 4:40/km
Elevation gain: 23 m
Average HR: 170
  1. 8:07
  2. 4:16
  3. 4:13
I tried to go for 3:55/km since I started with the sub-40 program. This was too hard, I wasn't at all recovered after the first rest so I decided to abort the session and divide the run back into two 1 km intervals.

Day 5 - rest day

Day 6 - 90 minutes easy:
Distance: 16:53 km
Average pace: 5:26 min/km
Elevation gain: 181 m
Average HR: 152

Slow easy run, heart rate dipped into Z3 on some uphill segments. Felt absolutely fantastic. I never ran this long or this far before. Legs felt good, pace felt good, did not feel especially tired when finished.

Day 7 - rest day
Long day at work and was unable to fit in a run. Took the bike home from work for 26 minutes of easy work with average HR of 130. To work was about 15 minutes and probably a bit higher HR but not tracked.

Day 8 - 1K intervals:
Time: 43:27 min
Distance: 9,11 km
Average pace: 4:46 min/km
Elevation gain: 41 m
Average HR: 169
Laps (time average HR/max HR):
  1. 3:57 165/174
  2. 3:57 173/181
  3. 4:01 176/183
  4. 4:09 178/186
  5. 4:11 182/186
  6. 4:14 180/188
Failing with the 2K intervals at target pace I choose to have a target of 4:00-4:10 min/km for this run. Started too fast and was unable to stay in time for the wast 2 intervals. For my next attempt I will try to focus on going slower the first intervals and trying to increase towards the end.

Day 9 - 30 minutes easy:
Distance: 6,19 km
Average pace: 4:51 min/km
Elevation gain: 33 m
Average HR: 150

Day 10 - 60 minutes easy:
Distance: 12,10 km
Average pace: 4:58 min/km
Elevation gain: 105 m
Average HR: 153

Day 11 - rest day

Day 12 - 5K time trial:
Time: 30:01 min
Distance: 6.16 km
Average pace: 4:52 min/km
Elevation gain: 26 m
Average HR: 160
Laps (time average HR/max HR):
  1. 4:06 160/170
  2. 4:09 171/174
  3. 4:15 174/179
  4. 4:18 177/181
  5. 4:15 179/184
5K total time: 21:03
Average pace: 4:13 min/km

Fastest 5K recorded, felt hard in the middle but when finished I felt I probably could have gone a bit faster. Went for a 30 km bike ride not too long after with a friend. Probably not the best from a recovery perspective. Total time for the bike ride was 1:11:53 with average HR of 130.

Day 13 - 60 minutes easy:
Distance: 11,72 km
Average pace: 5:07/km
Elevation gain: 116 m
Average HR: 155

Day 14 - 30 minutes easy:
Time: 34:20 min
Distance: 7,20 km
Average pace: 4:46/km
Elevation gain: 71 m
Average HR: 153

Day 15 - 400M intervals:
Time: 28:34 min
Distance: 6,02 km
Average pace: 4:45 min/km
Elevation gain: 23 m
Average HR: 157
  1. 1:25 152/156
  2. 1:33 157/163
  3. 1:34 162/170
  4. 1:22 163/173
  5. 1:31 163/175
  6. 1:30 164/175
  7. 1:29 167/178
  8. 1:31 169/181
  9. 1:30 169/179
  10. 1:30 172/183
Much easier than the 2K and 1K intervals. Target pace was 3:50-4:00 but everything felt good keeping the pace faster. Really helps knowing a rest is near!

Day 16 - 40 minutes easy:
Distance: 8,20 km
Average pace: 4:53 min/km
Elevation gain: 108 m
Average HR: 153

Day 17 - fartlek:
Time: 30:00 min
Distance: 6,50 km
Average pace: 4:37 min/km
Elevation gain: 138 m
Average HR: 156
Laps (pace):
  1. 4:22
  2. 3:43
  3. 3:44
  4. 4:03
  5. 4:13
  6. 4:04
Ran a new route that was more hilly than anticipated. Fun run.

Day 18 - 40 minutes easy:
Distance: 8,69 km
Average pace: 4:36 min/km
Elevation gain: 79 m
Average HR: 153

Day 20 - race day:
Time: 51:46 min
Distance: 11,33 km
Average pace: 4:34 min/km
Elevation gain: 198 m
Average HR: 171

Hilly and partly on trails. Felt hard. I think I slowed down to much on the recoveries after climbs and probably could have done better. Still happy with the result given the hard course.

Day 21 - 60 minutes easy:
Distance: 11.65 km
Average pace: 5:09 min/km
Elevation gain: 56
Average HR: 149

Day 22 - 30 minutes easy:
Time: 31:07 min
Distance: 4:73 km
Elevation gain: 70 m
Average HR: 141

Thought the planned route would be gravel but was steep trails and I got caught in heavy vegetation having to do a steep climb ending up in someones backyard. Thus not very reliable data.

Going forward:
I'm now into the first week of the second cycle. My targets are 4:05-4:15 min/km for the 2K intervals, subtracting 10 second for the 1K intervals and another 10 seconds for the 400M intervals.

My main goal at the moment is just enjoying running but I also have some races and time/pace goals. My next race is a 30 km race on easy trails in the end of September, but I might sign up for something before that. I was thinking of increasing the long run to 2 hours starting next cycle for 2 cycles and maybe 2,5 hours after that to cope with the longer distance. I also plan on running a half marathon next spring. I would like to get my 10K down to 35, the half under 1:30 and the 30K under 2:15. Goals are lower for longer races since they have a deadline. 2:15 for the 30K in September might be hard but 1:30 for the half next spring feels achievable. Would you agree?

I will also do some climbing which I think complements running quite well since it includes a lot of core and upper body work as well as lower body flexibility. I will also start doing some biking, at this point I barely get into Z2 before my legs give out so it do not think it will be a problem cardiovascularly. I do however get more tired in my legs biking, especially thighs and glutes. With running I almost only feel soreness and fatigue in my calves so I do not think the biking at this point will interfere too much with my running. What do you think?

RE: Training feedback - TheEd - 26-06-2019

Hi jbd, and welcome to the forums

thank you for the detailed feedback, it certainly makes moving forward easier

if the one bit of advice we can give you, is for now, to adapt to the 'pattern' of the training cycles

don't worry too much about hitting target times for the 2k or 1k sessions, instead make the sessions achievable. By doing this you will be surprised how much better things are come the end of the cycle

so instead of starting off faster, start at a pace 10 seconds slower and build-up over the last 2 or 3 if still feeling fresh

this is one aspect you will need to develop, pace  judgement. The good thing is you show natural speed. So that is there, we now need to 'box clever' .. train intelligently

your HR zones seem to fall into what could be considered the norm, so this will also make working with you easier

will await your reply before moving forward

ps.. have set to receive email for when you reply

RE: Training feedback - jbd - 28-06-2019

Hi again, thank you for your feedback. Going into the second cycle I tried to dial down paces to be more in tune with my 5K run, since I did not do a max test before the first cycle.

Second cycle:

Day 1 - 60 minutes easy
Planned on running in the morning and going for a bike ride in the evening but ended up just doing the bike ride. Hard to get the heart rate up biking, legs being way more limiting. Ended up going 48,38 km with a time of 1:39:31 and average HR of 124.

Day 2 - 30 minutes easy
Distance: 6,59 km
Average pace: 4:33 min/km
Elevation gain: 57 m
Average HR: 154

Day 3 - 2K intervals
Time: 57:06
Distance: 12,13 km
Average pace: 4:42 min/km
Elevation gain: 37 m
  1. 8:20 156/164
  2. 8:22 163/172
  3. 8:23 167/175
  4. 8:34 167/176
  5. 8:38 170/178
Pacing error again, went out too hard and ended up being too slow on the last two laps. Will try to pace better. Felt way better than last cycle but still need to work on speed endurance.

Day 4 - rest day

Day 5 - 90 minutes easy
Time: 1:47:24
Distance: 22,02 km
Average pace: 4:53 min/km
Elevation gain: 226 m
Average HR: 154

So I wanted to make the long run a bit longer, felt really hard after the one hour mark with lots of uphill and my left calf started to hurt a bit. Getting closer to home with more downhill and easing the pace a bit everything started feeling better again. Felt a bit drained after but really happy with the run!

Day 6 - 30 minutes easy
Distance: 6,39 km
Average pace: 4:42 min/km
Elevation gain: 40 m
Average HR: 151

Day 7 - 10K easy
Time: 53:13
Average pace: 5:19 min/km
Elevation gain: 174 m
Average HR: 148

Undulated trail run. Fun variation.

Day 8 - 1K intervals
Time: 43:37
Distance: 9,11 km
Average pace: 4:47/km
Elevation gain: 35 m
Average HR: 155
  1. 4:01 154/159
  2. 4:02 160/165
  3. 3:58 162/174
  4. 4:00 165/176
  5. 4:01 166/176
  6. 4:00 170/182
Last two intervals was hard. I aimed for 4:00 to 4:10 but ended up with very even intervals. For most of the intervals I went out harder the first 100 meters or so before easing of and finding pace. First laps I had to slow down towards the end to stay on pace.

Day 9 - 30 minutes easy
Time: 40:01
Distance: 6,56 km
Average pace: 6:06 min/km
Elevation gain: 108 m
Average HR: 129

Ran with a friend. Slower pace but I guess it is good to slow down now and then.

Day 10 - 60 minutes easy
Distance: 12,53 km
Average pace: 4:47 min/km
Elevation gain: 115 m
Average HR: 151

Got some low stomach cramps at 6-8 km. Probably nothing to do with the running as my stomach was acting up a bit earlier during the day. Felt fresh and good towards the end!

Day 11 - rest day

Day 12 - 5K time trial
Time: 26:56
Distance: 6,05 km
Average pace: 4:27 min/km
Elevation gain: 22 m
Average HR: 167
  1. 3:49 162/169
  2. 3:59 171/175
  3. 4:15 173/177
  4. 4:13 174/178
  5. 4:07 179/184
5K time: 20:23
5K pace: 4:05 min/km
5K cadence: 176
5K average HR: 172

Started out too fast, was fooled by my watch which early on showed a slower pace making me want to increase pace. Goal was 4:00 min/km, maybes should have a slower goal. Felt hard but still okay. I might have been able to go faster, hard to judge. Looking through my training history of some of the runs before starting the program I ran a 6K with average HR of 180 which I guess could mean I could go a bit faster.

Day 13 - 60 minutes easy
Distance: 12,91 km
Average pace: 4:39 min/km
Elevation gain: 80 m
Average HR: 151

Nice, quite flat run. Felt easy all the way.

Day 14 - 30 minutes easy
Time: 52:06
Distance: 10,64 km
Average pace: 4:54 min/km
Elevation gain: 135 m
Average HR: 153

Ran into a friend mid run so I joined her which resulted in some uphill running with heavy breathing at the end of the hills. Was fun but maybe strayed from the program a bit too much.

RE: Training feedback - TheEd - 02-07-2019

Hi jbd, with the cycling .. look to spin only while adapting tot he run rigours

hard cycling has a negative effect on the legs while adapting to the running, so do be careful

as we progress we can look at cycling aspects but for now spin, and especially from day 3 to Day 8 of the program

if you stray from the program, try to make sure it is not between Day 3 and 8 Wink

so all good and enjoy


RE: Training feedback - jbd - 21-07-2019

Day 15 - 400M intervals:
Time: 30:24 min
Distance: 6,19 km
Average pace: 4:55 min/km
Elevation gain: 40 m
Average HR: 153
  1. 1:17 157/170
  2. 1:23 161/170
  3. 1:24 158/171
  4. 1:23 161/173
  5. 1:22 163/175
  6. 1:23 163/174
  7. 1:23 165/175
  8. 1:24 165/175
  9. 1:24 165/177
  10. 1:23 167/178
Ran a bit faster than planned but felt really good and consistent speeds except first interval.

Day 16 - rest day
Not planned rest day but unable to fit in a run.

Day 17 - fartlek
Time: 30:00 min
Distance: 6,96 km
Average pace: 4:19 min/km
Elevation gain: 65 m
Average HR: 160
Laps (pace):
  1. 3:43
  2. 3:35
  3. 3:55
  4. 3:52
  5. 3:32
  6. 3:21
Tempo felt good, pace difference mostly due to gradients.

Day 18 - 40 minutes easy
Distance: 8,67 km
Average pace: 4:37 min/km
Elevation gain: 70 m
Average HR: 159

Decided to do the 40 minute run this day instead since I did not have a real race planned for race day.

Day 19 - race day
Time: 29:18
Distance: 7,12 km
Average pace: 4:07 min/km
Elevation gain: 71 m
Average HR: 165

Running by myself. Not really pushing it, finding it hard to know what pace I can keep up now being more used to easy runs.

Day 20 - 60 minutes easy
Distance: 12,52 km
Average pace: 4:48 min/km
Elevation gain: 112 m
Average HR: 156

Day 21 - 30 minutes easy
Time: 31:57
Distance: 6,95 km
Average pace: 4:36 min/km
Elevation gain: 39 m
Average HR: 152

Third cycle:
Day 1 - 60 minutes easy
Distance: 12,72 km
Average pace: 4:43 min/km
Elevation gain: 106 m
Average HR: 152

Day 2 - 30 minutes easy
Time: 45:08
Distance: 9,65 km
Average pace: 4:41 min/km
Elevation gain: 77 m
Average HR: 151

Day 3 - 2K intervals
Time: 58:16
Distance: 12,22 km
Average pace: 4:46 min/km
Elevation gain: 55 m
  1. 8:14 158/164
  2. 8:13 163/168
  3. 8:14 166/172
  4. 8:28 167/176
  5. 8:27 169/178
Same as last, first three intervals felt good but then did not manage to keep tempo.

Day 4 - rest day

Day 5 - 90 minutes easy
Time: 54:46
Distance: 11,81 km
Average pace: 4:38 min/km
Elevation gain: 117 m
Average HR: 156

Was away with some friends so barely had time to fit in a run at all. 90 minutes was not possible due to lack of time but run felt good anyway. Tried to go a little harder since I was going for a shorter amount of time in an effort to keep the load of day 3-8. Was physically active throughout the day with some high intensity activities.

Day 6 - 30 minutes easy
Time: 34:15
Distance: 7,39 km
Average pace: 4:38 min/km
Elevation gain: 72 m
Average HR: 151

Day 7 - 10K easy
Started to feel a slight pain located to my right fibular head after last run. Probably hamstring tendinopathy but might be IT band syndrome. Don't know if it was from running or the strains during the weekend which included short sprints with fast changes of direction.

Day 8 - 1K intervals
Time: 45:44
Distance: 9,04 km
Average pace: 5:04/km
Elevation gain: 34 m
Average HR: 153
  1. 3:46 160/167
  2. 3:56 164/172
  3. 3:57 166/174
  4. 4:00 169/177
  5. 4:08 170/177
  6. 4:04 173/182
Did not feel the pain today so decided to do todays workout. Legs felt good so went a bit fast first interval which punished the last intervals. Felt a slight pain in my right fibular head after the workout, still better than yesterday.

Day 9
The pain was worse today so I decided to rest again. 

Since the quality sessions were over, and also partly due to lack of time due to increased workload the last week before vacation with suboptimal sleep quality, I decided to rest for the rest of the week. Day 9 was tuesday and today is sunday. I can no longer provoke pain with exercise or palpation and think I can go back to running. What do you advice - going back into the cycle (if so omitting the missed days or starting from day 9 again), restarting a new cycle or going into buildup? I just started my summer vacations so I will have plenty of time but I will also be more physically active with other activities, mostly climbing but also some hiking.

RE: Training feedback - TheEd - 22-07-2019

Hi jbd, how are things with you now?

I must truly take that 400m session out of the program as the runners too often run too fast and do it on the wrong surface which can setup problems

will await how you feel currently

ps.. you looked to be training so well, short sprints can definitely trigger hamstring problems

RE: Training feedback - jbd - 22-07-2019

Ran the 400 on gravel first time and tracks last time. Running on tracks I felt extra strain in my left gluteus medius afterwards which I contribute to the turns, probably should switch direction halfway through. What is the main reason for sticking to a slower tempo - injury prevention? pace control? avoiding overtraining in the recovery part of the cycle?

Since the running went fine for two complete cycles I can probably address the overuse injury to that day when we were doing kind of a decathlon of random activities from chasing each other, running an obstacle course, tug-o-war et.c.

I feel fine now, and having rested a bit and getting back into a better sleeping pattern feels great. Starting with easy run today. Not sure if I should go back to intervals again just yet or just do easy runs for a week or so first. What would you suggest?

RE: Training feedback - TheEd - 23-07-2019

hi jbd, great to hear all fine

yes, doing different activities could cause a niggle or two

Do easy runs up to 1hr every 2nd day for now  (for a week) and monitor how things go, and then we can see how to proceed thereafter

consider adding exercises to your routine .. maybe some strength routines

good to go